Pros and Cons of Refinishing the 511 Series cabinets - Printable Version
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Pros and Cons of Refinishing the 511 Series cabinets - Ron Ramirez - 04-24-2009
A recent discussion with my friend, Michael Prosise, has prompted me to offer this topic of discussion to those of you Phellow Phorum members.
As you may (or may not) know, four of the Philco 511 Series metal table models - specifically, Model 512 (Mandarin Red), 513 (Labrador Gray), 514 (Nile Green) and 515 (Impressionistic - gold with lotus leaves) - feature hand-painted decorations, making no two cabinets exactly alike.
I'd like to know your thoughts on refinishing these four cabinets specifically. To be more specific - To refinish or not to refinish? Should these cabinets be left alone, considered individual works of art, or should they be refinished if they need it? If refinished, should they be marked as such? And how do you feel about taking a 511 and turning it into a "faux" 512, 513, 514 or 515?
Of the four, the 515 Impressionistic is the rarest of the bunch. I own a "faux" 515 which was originally a 511.
Original factory illustrations of these sets may be viewed here:
http://www.philcoradio.com/gallery/1928.htm
Comments welcome...
Re: Pros and Cons of Refinishing the 511 Series cabinets - Ron Ramirez - 04-24-2009
Along this line of discussion, Michael Prosise asked me to post these comments:
"I am not opposed to the refinishing of radio cabinets, with the exception of Philco's hand-painted '511 Series'. This opinion is not because I own the entire collection. It is because these are individual works of art, each one slightly different than another of the same model number. Refinishing or reproducing them, in my view, takes away the unique artistic and historical value.
In my opinion it's a matter of preservation of the past. These hand-painted cabinets are something no one can exactly replicate, for each is unique. These particular sets, if replicated, would be fake, and thus all of us collectively lose a valuable part of our radio design heritage. In this regard the model number means nothing, for it can be totally eliminated by simply removing the entire chassis shield upon which the service data is stamped. We as collectors (and our hobby) will become less the richer for it in the end.
What happens should they be offered for sale as the 'real thing'? We cannot control whose hands they may eventually fall in to. My opinion is not meant to reflect negatively on the integrity or honesty of any person within our radio collecting hobby who has or intends to reproduce these cabinets. Please, your comments are welcome."
Re: Pros and Cons of Refinishing the 511 Series cabinets - codefox1 - 04-24-2009
I think there is a middle ground here. Selective refinishing to preserve what is left is a good thing. Museums even do it to a degree. A little touch up and replacement of missing or grossly deformed or rotting pieces can turn a pile of junk into something that "Your Old Lady" would allow above the basement level of your home.
I've not seen these exotic specimens, but if I had one, and there was some pretty cool hand drawn artwork there, I have access to an artist who could touch up the details and restore the original character to museum standards. Luckily she is my Lady Friend.
I have a couple of wrecks in my shop which were borderline junkers, but now are becoming more than presentable. 100% original, no. Functional, yes. If I sell them, I will definitely glue a restoration notice on the inside of the cabinets stating what I did and when I did it. We all take poetic license with the electronic side of things, why do we obcess so with the cabinet and knobs?
Re: Pros and Cons of Refinishing the 511 Series cabinets - Arran - 04-24-2009
I think it depends on how deteriorated the originals are, in most cases the finish could be "conserved" and touched up, much like they do with oil paintings and antique furniture. As for making replicas one might as well, so long as they are not represented as the real thing, which would be hard to do unless you have the original labeling, which would mean having an original hand painted set. Plus the effects of aging would be hard to duplicate such that it could not be detected.
Best Regards
Arran
Re: Pros and Cons of Refinishing the 511 Series cabinets - Ron Ramirez - 04-24-2009
Here's a picture of my faux 515 Impressionistic.
[Image: http://www.philcoradio.com/images/phorum/515alt.jpg]
This is a radio I rescued from being a rough, beat up, rusty old 511. I purposely did not paint any lotus leaves on the sides or back in order to distinguish this from an original 515.
Yes, I hand-painted this thing, several years ago. I'm not sure I would have the patience to take on such a project again. Not bad, I guess. Certainly not original. It was well received wherever I showed it off; I took it with me to AWA-Rochester several years ago when their focus was on Philco, and they asked me to be a guest speaker. My faux 515 was quite a hit with the crowd. I made sure everyone knew it was not original!
Re: Pros and Cons of Refinishing the 511 Series cabinets - Arran - 04-25-2009
I don't know if I would leave the Lotus leaves off the sides and the back myself, even with those on there it would be hard to mistake a new paint job with an original one. What I would do, just to prevent the set from being misrepresented, is to paint or engrave the date of the new paint job somewher, and the name of whoever painted it, not out in the open but perhaps on the bottom or the inside, with a clear coat over it. In Canada it would be difficult to create a forgery anyhow, almost all of the sets up here originally had a brass tag riveted to the chassis with the model and serial numbers on it.
Best Regards
Arran
Re: Pros and Cons of Refinishing the 511 Series cabinets - Philco1928 - 04-27-2009
Arran Wrote:As for making replicas one might as well, so long as they are not represented as the real thing, which would be hard to do unless you have the original labeling, which would mean having an original hand painted set. Best Regards
Arran
You bring up a good point here Arran. The fact is there are many of these sets in collections that are so badly beat up they aren't worth displaying. Therefore the original labeling IS available for easy transfer to a replicated set. Yes the model number is a metal plate rivited to a large tube shield, but, this shield is attached to the chassis with simple screws, so in reality it could be physically transferred to the chassis of a "non-genuine" replicated cabinet, (or the shield with attached model # sold to someone who is doing replications).
One of the four model 513 Labrador Gray sets (Pg.15, 1st Edition Philco Book) I have came from the seller without any shield at all.
- Michael
Re: Pros and Cons of Refinishing the 511 Series cabinets - Jim Berg - 04-30-2009
I am not sure what prices these set bring, but to have an artist duplicate the work on the set would not be cheap. I would be more inclined to clean it up and maybe have some touch up done. I would like to find one of these in good shape someday, but have not seen any over the years. A good artist should be able to touch up the cabinet and it should blend in very well. My mom was an artist and did some restorations on old paintings. It required mixing different colors to get the proper shade of the aged paint.
Re: Pros and Cons of Refinishing the 511 Series cabinets - DeckApe - 05-01-2009
If it needs refinishing because it's not worth preserving, then so be it. But I think changing the color is cheating somehow.
Perhaps a tasteful engraved brass placard on the side--like a 1" x 3" with "Replica Finish Created By __________________" would be sufficient.
Re: Pros and Cons of Refinishing the 511 Series cabinets - Philco1928 - 05-04-2009
Jim Berg Wrote:I am not sure what prices these set bring, but to have an artist duplicate the work on the set would not be cheap. I would be more inclined to clean it up and maybe have some touch up done.
As Ron has pointed out before, when it comes to value/price, it often boils down to how badly the potential buyer wants it. Of course there's always a "ball-park" range. Interesting to note is that the model 511 "Spanish Brown", a two-tone blend of shades of brown, has for the past 25 years remained around $100-$125, and that's with or without the matching speaker! Why this is one can only speculate. If the seller takes the time to properly clean both the chassis and cabinet, and throw a nice coat of automotive polish on the cabinet, this baby really shines. I'd speculate an appropiate selling price of $175 to $200, especially if the scratches and dings are at a minimum.
The other sets in the series go for substantially more, assuming they're cleaned/polished, include the matching speaker, the hand-painting is original and in at least fair condition. Now some folks might look down on me for stating prices, but since I have purchased and own so many of these sets I probably am the most qualified in this regard. (The important caveat here is that at an auction the price paid means very little if two bidders are desperate for the radio.) With all the former in mind, and consideration of the average price I paid (some 15 to 20 years ago!), the "Labrador Gray" should fetch $250-$300, the "Nile Green" $375-$425, the rarer "Mandarin Red" at least $500 or more, and the rarest (only one known to exist), "Impressionistic", well I can't put a price on that. I was extremely lucky to locate it after an intensive three year nationwide search about 18 years ago. Like me the seller had no idea of its value, so we traded. It was a heck of a trade too! I even through in a "new-in-box" Nile Green speaker! That hurt.
Happy hunting!
Re: Pros and Cons of Refinishing the 511 Series cabinets - Philco1928 - 05-04-2009
DeckApe Wrote:If it needs refinishing because it's not worth preserving, then so be it. But I think changing the color is cheating somehow.
If you don't mind, I'm going to correct my earlier statement, regarding these hand-painted sets as to condition. I said they might be so beat up "they may not be worth displaying". Well I take that back. They are becoming so rare I don't think it matters much if they're beat up. I say display it; "look what I got". For one thing, preservation of any unique radio artwork, regardless of condition is vital.
I agree with your statement 100% that "changing the color is cheating somehow". The finish is fake, is it not?
: There happens to be a rather well-respected member of the radio collecting community who is taking model 511's and stripping them to bare metal. He then reproduces any of the other sets in the hand-painted series on this bare cabinet. I am not aware that they are being represented as the real thing nor do I suspect he has any intention of doing so. The cost is beyond the means of the average collector. The "touch-up" of an existing model was quoted at $1300. (
) Can you even guess what it would cost to completly replicate one of these sets from bare metal? I can't imagine.As to a brass plate, as you suggested, saying "Finish/Design Reproduced by . . . . ", or engraving the same inside the cabinet, would seem to be a given. But the suggestion of this to the gentleman was met with disdain and a "how dare you!" response.
I am not opposed to touch-up work on these unique sets, but do feel it should be limited to major areas of damage. A full touch-up, and I have seen one, makes the set look new, perfect, and in becoming so loses the original hand-painted artwork of the young lady who originally painted that cabinet back in 1928. You can only "touch-up" one of these sets to a certain degree, otherwise you stand to lessen its historic and financial value. After all, it is someone else's work of art, not your own.
Where do we draw the line???
:
Re: Pros and Cons of Refinishing the 511 Series cabinets - FStephenMasek - 05-04-2009
The fact that labor rates and economic conditons were such that they could be hand painted and then sold at an affordable price seems to be the greatest historic significance of such radios.
Passing off a fake as real is a crime, but other than that, the radio belongs to whoever owns it, so they are free to do with it as they choose. Some may choose to keep one as an artifact, and others may want it to look and work nicely.
Anyone who has a very rare set might want to consider donating it to a museum, especially if they bought it at a low price and are not poor.
Re: Pros and Cons of Refinishing the 511 Series cabinets - philco phan - 05-04-2009
i have a 512 and a 513,shown here; http://www.radioatticarchives.com/radio.htm?radio=8855
i wouldn't dare mess with either one.
the 512 is in good condition,the 513 not so much.
i waxed it and that's all i'm going to do.
i considered painting it with clear laquer to preserve what's left of the original finish but i'm still deciding on that,that's a non-reversable step.
phil
Re: Pros and Cons of Refinishing the 511 Series cabinets - Alan Douglas - 05-05-2009
A prominent AWA officer has a "fish tank" as they were known 20-something years ago when I saw it. Actually I understood they were lotus leaves.
Re: Pros and Cons of Refinishing the 511 Series cabinets - Philco1928 - 05-06-2009
Alan Douglas Wrote:A prominent AWA officer has a "fish tank" as they were known 20-something years ago when I saw it. Actually I understood they were lotus leaves.
Fish tank!! Good memory! Indeed it was the nickname he and his wife had given it, your're so correct. Hearing that is very nostalgic. It's been years, too many, since the spouse and I visited. Acquiring the tank from my good friend took some doing, for sure, and was certainly the biggest trade I've ever made to acquire a radio!You're also correct that they're "Lotus leaves" as I believe I may have mentioned when I wrote that part of the Philco book. This is Philco's model 515, "Impressionistic". The very one you saw way back then can be seen on page 15 of the 1st edition. It resides here in Maryland now.
Thank you for bringing back some fond memories Alan . . .
Michael P.